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March 26, 2007

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Sadly, I had my own encounter with an "inside meat" feast at which I was the guest of honor during my visit to Mongolia a few years ago. It didn't really agree with me (to put it mildly) and resulted in a short visit to the Korean Friends Hospital in UB! I think the true irony, though, was being given rehydration salts by my Mongolian hosts that were from the UNICEF program - so my Halloween trick or treating probably bought those salts to send them to poor children in Mongolia, only to have me wind up using them all!

Being one "who ha[s] traveled the less beaten paths of this world," I larfed and larfed. I still remember my mother, your aunt, desperately wiping pieces of "100-year-old" egg out of her mouth like Tom Hanks wiping caviar out of his mouth in "Big." And my mother was a big proponent of eating everything that's put on your plate and of trying everything once. Of course, we can't always blame the Mongolians' (or Peruvians' or Singaporeans', in my case) eclectic tastes; this is how I feel about the raw oysters served quite happily here in the U.S. Or any kind of oysters. Or clams, for that matter.

Floki is not unusual in her taste for cat leavings...my cat-loving friend once took care of a dog for a while. Her vet said "Dogs love cat food both before and after it goes through the cat."

Konchog, that's what the vodka is for! So you no longer care what you're eating! Ha, this was a funny post! I think the worst I ever had to encounter was brain salad (old folksters here can reminisce over the ELP album brain salad surgery). I never could bring myself to try it. I worked for 3 years in a neuroanatomy department, and it looked too much like work for my taste. My family in Turkey tried to freak me out with lamb head, particularly the eyeballs. Given that my ancestors invented haggis...I should be hardier than I am. Liver is okay, but the 'lights' part seems way too icky.
I on the other hand, will happily shuck and slurp down a live oyster, and beg for more.

Mr. Konchog, i am afraid i seriously need to seriously lecture you about the phenomena of the Alternative Elfstedentocht. Perhaps over a meaty lunch with the horse-eaters?

To quote from the article: "Recently a team of Mongolian believers went to a nearby village to teach Bible lessons and the believers were disappointed when one by one the people walked away."

Looks like the nearby villagers have abundant common sense.

And I swear I will post the photos from last summer at the Stupa cafe sometime soon.

Wait, doesn't the Vinaya forbid monks from eating certain meats like elephant, dog, lion etc? I think I read that horse is one of them...

Dear Konchog (and other readers),

as a Dutch person i can tell you that the Elfstedentocht (11 city tour, approximately 200km) was first skated in 1909. So far the tour has been organised only 15 times due to lack of sufficient ice in the years in between. To hold the 15.000 participants, the ice needs to be at least 15 cm thick! From the 1970 when travelling became easier and cheaper, alternative tours have been organised in Sweden, Finland, Candada and Austria. This year was the first time in Mongolia.

On the eating: when working in Torino, Italia I once ordered a dish called finanziera. I could from the italian language menu figure out that it was veal, but that was about all. As i was working in the Finance Unit the name had some attraction to me. Anyway, when it was served I think i tasted: heart, liver, kidney, brain and more of that stuff in a nice cream sauce. I can tell you a do prefer the fritto misto (which, in case you don't know, is basically the same stuff, but it is all deep fried. And there is some "normal" stuff as well).

As to eating horsemeat: why not? it is actually quite good red meat. Mongolians like to eat it in winter as it is supposed to have the quality of giving you a nice warm feeling for longer than other kinds of meat.

Fish eyes. No problem. Inside meat. Well, I'm not actually going to eat it but, o.k.

Peace Corps, Gabon, Africa. I was there to teach math to secondary school children. During my first weeks "in country" at a "home visit" with a local village school teacher I was served a rare delicacy. My French, at the time, was limited. And my hostess simply kept repeating the word, louder and slower (much like an arrogant American tourist expecting locals to speak English). (At the risk of ruining the punch line, the word was "singe". It's French. Go ahead, look it up.) So the meat was horrible - stringy, tough, gristly. No amount of local brew was going to fix this. The evening was hard and long - I understood little. We had a hard time conversing. Then, in an attempt to impress me, make me feel better? they served me a hand. A perfectly formed little hand, 5 digits curled up gently. It was about the size of my own. To gnaw on.

"Singe" is French for monkey.

I'm a vegetarian.

Love your blog. Thanks for the chance to delurk. There aren't many who want to hear my monkey story.

Jae-min -- those things are actually discussed in certain traditions of Vajrayana samaya (words of honor) and the "five meats" -- human, elephant, ox, dog, and horse -- are not always prohibited. It's a long story. I found the reference in Ngari Panchen's Perfect Conduct. And anyway, I ate the horse meat inadvertently. The vinaya (monastic rules of conduct) doesn't mention them.

Roeland -- Huh. I'm sure your other Dutch compatriot here in the comments is gearing up to explain all this further to me in excrutiatingly exhaustive detail.

Bullwinkle -- Wow, that's a good one. My brother-in-law relates having to sample coagulated sheep's blood in Africa, and my sister, when she was there (maybe in the Congo), tells a hilarious story of driving with some government officials who demanded the car stop so they could visit a roadside seller and pinch the huge bats to see if they were fresh. Glad you delurked! Hope it's not the last time.

Dog.

Yep.

I know.

Floki etc.

And I usually don't mention it to Westerners because it is a common racist insult against Koreans, in the same vein as "garlic eaters." Or "frog eaters" against Frenchmen. Anyway, the thing is that it is no so common nowadays in Korea, especially among the young generation, which enjoy petting their little doggies.

But eating dog meat is nothing compared to eating living baby octopuses, like in the movie "Old Boy." Can you imagine the tentacles slipping out of the teeth, trying desperately to grab something?... Sometimes, the octopuses are roughly cut into pieces (alive) in front of you, each part moving separately in the side dish for endless minutes. Since in Korea, the food is often cooked (or is finished to be cooked) on the table itself, the octopus is also somtimes dropped into the main boiling soup, under a transparent lid, to everybody's enjoyment.

But don't get me wrong: I don't think it is wrong to eat dog or whatever, but I personally can't stand to see animals being eaten alive or killed in a painful way (like being fried alive, as in Korea sometimes). French people love to eat living oysters... (not me, though).

In Korean country side you can be served sometimes at home only (it is not common at all) fried grasshoppers. Never tried this.

[Let me state now that I love Korean food.]

Horse meat is still found easily in France. Very good.

Frog is excellent too. Between chicken and fish. But I stopped eating frog since I know how they are killed (don't ask).

Some people find disgusting to eat foie gras---amazing! And pork and veal (the best) liver is commonly found in French supermarkets, as well as pork and fowl kidneys (fantastic, fried in olive oil and garlic).

Oh, Mr Chirac is found of veal brains, for sure.

Veal brawn is served in the salads too.

Tripes, of course, are popular. They can also be cooked and grinded, mixed with mushrooms to make stuffing for the turkeys or other fowls.

Absolutely everything in the pig is eaten, actually.

I know that Anglo-Saxons dislike even the mere idea of eating rabbit (likened to rats?), but rabbit is excellent. You just have to forget that, once peeled off, it looks like a cat, that's all. Especially, rabbit with a mustard sauce (not the sugared US version, I mean the real one;-) and white wine is divine. [That reminds me the last Wallace & Gromit movie, The curse of the were-rabbit, where they have to deal with invasions of rabbits and a were-rabbit. They take all the rabbits from a huge garden and then they keep them in a basement. Then they wonder what to do with them... This is a storyline which is highly impropable in many other European countries, since the answer would be obvious;-)]

Coming back to Buddhism and food: in Korea, I was once invited to a restaurant to eat raw fish. The problem was that it was an excellent restaurant so the customer chooses the fish he plans to eat. I told my host that I could not eat the fish meat, because I take for myself, a layman, the precept which the Buddha directed to the monks: do not eat of an animal which has been killed for you. In which case, the monk must refuse the meat. (I really believe this leads to bad karma.) Is it correct, Konchog?

If I remember well, the five forbidden meats where declared forbidden in order to avoid negative feelings towards the early Buddhist community, since these animals were considered as noble by many indians of the time. Therefore, a modern interpretation is that, if eating horse meat is not frown upon, like in France, then the eating is allowed. Is it correct, Konchog?

Wow. Coulda predicted we'd get the full range of gastronomie from Christian!

You are correct, my friend. The only dietary prohibition I have as a monk is that I cannot eat meat if I know, or even suspect, that the animal was killed expressly for me to eat. Because, as you say, one enters into a very specific, very negative karmic relationship with that being. I once had to beg off a family reunion on the Eastern Shore of Maryland because a crab feast was planned, in which all the little critters would be dropped live into boiling water. *Shudder*

As to the second, I don't know. The sacred cow's not on the list. Ngari Panchen calls them "animals that are not usually killed for consumption." They're mostly all draught/working animals, except for humans, which are only eaten by a select few of us!

As for foie gras, delicious, yes, but people object to the force-feeding of geese to fatten the liver. I have trouble eating it, as a result.

I haven't come to really like the Korean food here in UB. Maybe I'm ordering the wrong things? Any recommendations that are kimchee-free?

Now this "inside meat" is some crazy dish. That stuff could probably cure my countrymen from their meat worshiping. In my region of Croatia people are painfully pork-crazed... That kills me. I can't stand the damn thing, I never could. Smell, texture, flavour makes me want to throw up. But still I eat it somethimes just not to disturb other peoples feelings, since upon declaring myself as not pork loving person in past I only got responce like- "um, son... you got some issues!" Just the recognition that pork-hater sits at the table can ruin the feast for others here.
People get nervous and confused, it's like mass murderer is amog them.
If I was anything in a past life I think good guess would be- pig. No?

Speaking of Korean food, everytime I see the small octopuses being eaten alive, I get the sudden urge to fly over and perform as many animal liberations as I can. Also, Koreans used to eat snakes. I think.

In reply to Kongchog-la, the spirit of the inner offering is indeed that of non-discrimination in emptiness but in reality, I have defintely read somewhere that all Buddhists should refrain from certain meats including dog.

Sorry for the double comment but I remember the teaching on the inner offering when all the Malaysians started retelling their peculiar dietry habits. Once, someone brought chicken feet, liver and heart for lunch at the center. My lama refused and asked that those kind of dishes not be brought again as so many chickens would have been killed to produce a plateful.

Yes, Jae-Min, we deal in relative truth and ultimate truth, depending on the circumstances. There are some general guidelines for monks, and one is not to act in ways that diminish the faith of laypeople. So it wouldn't be right to pull out and chomp into a big ol' roast beef sandwich in front of observant Hindus, even if it doesn't technically break any rules.

Another interesting example is smoking. There are some South Asian Theravadin monks who are very by-the-book about their practice. And because the Buddha didn't say anything about smoking, some feel it's OK. We would never do it because of the general guideline I just mentioned, and other reasons having to do with protecting this precious human rebirth, and how smoking aversely affects one's ability to meditate.

Back to food, many lamas agree with what you cited. One who visited our temple contemptuously referred to shrimp as "sea bugs" and said it was wrong to order them at a restaurant for that same reason -- so many sentient beings killed for just one meal. From that particular POV, large animals are superior, in that one sentient being feeds many people.

I don't know about the quality and variety of the Korean in food in UB. Kimchee is a side-dish, anyway... but definitely the first step into Korean cusine! It's like cheese in France or pork in Vedran's account.

This thread about food habits in Buddhism is getting very interesting. In particular, lama Konchog mention of the rule of thumb "the bigger the animal, the better for eating." This point of view assumes that all animal suffer the same when dying, am I right?

Of course, I have no idea if this is correct or wrong, but I would dare to mention that pain depends on the state of development of the nervous system. This biological approach seems to entail that the more developped the nervous system is, the bigger pain it can generate in the mind.

Conversely, the ability to feel happiness would be greater.

Taking an extreme example, killing bacterias, deprived of nervous system, probably cause no pain to the microbe. A shrimp has a much simpler nervous system than a cow.

Of course, the weakness of this line of thought is what about summing the pains of 500kg of shrimps in comparison with the pain of one cow, in the face of death (which includes the pain of dying itself but also the cow senses that it is going to be killed and suffers this way too, and also the fact that by shortening the life of an animal which could have been happy otherwise).

A friend of mine stopped eating pork because he says that a pig is actually a pet animal, just as a dog, so, just a dog, it has a psychology, thus an ability to feel suffering in many ways, not just physical pain. (I heard that indeed a pig can behave like dog in many ways, but they are killed before anyone notice...)

Dear Konchog,
i just remember a article on a blog by an Aussie who used to live in Ulaanbaatar. I give you 2 links: the first one to Korean restaurants in UB: http://thomo.coldie.net/?p=339
The second to his personal eating/cooking rules: http://thomo.coldie.net/?p=162
I'm not a specialist myself on Korean food, so can't give you any hints where to go.

Interesting, indeed, as I narf on a pretty virtuous peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

As I understand the relative view of these things, the Buddha didn't look so much at the hierarchy of beings' experience of suffering vis a vis the development of their nervous systems. In other words, he didn't emphasize difference, he emphasized similarity. So what do all sentient beings have in common? They want happiness and don't want suffering. And what do they all hold most dear? Their own lives. If threatened, a beetle will run for its life the same as a pig. Depriving a being of life is depriving it of that to which it is most attached, therefore creating for it the most suffering. Thus one might challenge the view that vegetarianism is more virtuous, since uncountable sentient beings are killed in the crop-raising process, from plowing to pesticides, etc.

Now, the Buddha did say it's a heavier karma to kill a human than an animal, for the reason that it's so much more difficult to come by a human rebirth, and you're depriving that being of just about the only form in which he or she has a chance to enter the path to enlightenment. But maybe that's another thread.

The following is about food NOT eaten. When we lived in Peru, our maid Aida, from Cuzco, apparently relayed to her family that the gringo repast was not exactly to her liking, and would they send her some of her native fare? What arrived, and shown to me proudly (also I was offered a portion), was "conejo", or guinea pig, roasted whole, complete with hair, ears, eyes, and little pointy teeth - also sent by slow mail from Cuzco. I was pregnant at the time and reacted, well, quite violently. Poor Aida did not "comprende", but at least she had the entire feast to herself. Even today, just writing about it turns me green! Ma

Aye Aye! I will explain in excruciatingly exhaustive detail, starting 1909! Well actually if you want to have the complete story, we actually have some confirmation of some senior historians that in fact we could trace down the origins of the elfstedentocht to much earlier times. The heroic nature of the people from Netherlands and Friesland, combined with an iron courage has made my countrymen leaders in many...
..ah, well maybe over lunch.

Konchog, some off topic: If ever someone is looking for an opportunity to practice, follow my lead and adopt a 2+ year old. Every day is a new adventure in learning patience, understanding and compassion.

On topic, your inside meat story is amusing, but I think any of us who have lived outside the US have similar. I happily ate horse salami as a child in Africa when it was imported on a Romanian shipl. Inside meat doesn't sound like a big deal, especially not when I live in a country where "Jerusalem Mix" is a delicacy. It's stir fried innards plopped into a pita with your selection of condiments. My food story: I got served blowfish in Tokyo and wasn't in a position where I could stop eating it. Back at my hotel room that night, I was frantically researching the Internet to find out how long it takes to die of blowfish poisoning. I found it could take up to 24 hours. D'ya think I got to sleep that night?

Keep up the great work on your blog. It helps keep me sane on those rare occasions that Karen actually naps and allows me some time online.

Nothing bind people like a good food conversation, ehh?

I can completely relate to Vedran's story of being the only person you know to dislike a popular food item. In my case, it's hamburgers and hot dogs. I find all kinds of ways to avoid the subject when in a social situation, as most people assume it's pretentious snobbery; after all, NO ONE in her right mind ACTUALLY dislikes the American classics, right? When I explain that I was just born disliking those meats, the suspicious reaction is pretty funny, actually. Like Christian -- LOVE the rabbit meat. It's not on too many local menus, but I get it, or lamb, or venison, whenever possible. The rest of Christian's list -- probably won't try it. I haven't branched off my cultural menu much. Even when I tried a whole lobster, despite the fact that I've had lobster as an ingredient many times, I just about yakked. Laying upside down on the plate, it was suddenly obvious why it was in the spider family. After getting a separate dish and hiding the carcass under my napkin, I was able to enjoy the meat just fine, however.

Lama Konchog,

According to my class readings, hinduism was probably changing a lot at the time of the Buddha. In particular, the cast hierarchy, with the brahmin at the top, was spreading through India, but was not completely obvious to everyone. The many polemics between brahmins and the Buddha in the Pali canon should be interpreted in this historical context. And now the cow. It is then possible (my two cents) that the cow, whose proeminence started in relationship with Krsna, was not so sacred at the time... and so was eatable. But other more Vedic animals, like the horse perhaps, was indeed sacred.

About the sentient beings being eaten; thanks for confirming that the Buddha did not make differences. But this is maybe due to the fact that he addressed only the monastics on such topics (in the Vinaya). Also, the knowledge of biology should be taken into account whenever possible, if deemed useful. (The dalai-lama often says so about science in general.)

Should the fact that a beetle run for its life, just as a bigger animal, imply that eating any of them is wrong? Humm... I believe that this comparison is mainly intended to raise the relative bodhicitta (compassion) into listener's mind-heart. In East Asian Buddhism, monastics are vegetarian, as you know, because they rely on Mahayana sutras considered authoritative on discipline matters, together with the Vinaya (many Japanese schools have get rid of most or all the Vinaya, though), and these sutra emphasise compassion towards all sentient beings and are also extended to their logical conclusion: "Fishes are friends, not food." (Finding Nemo)

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Mongolia Bird List: "L" = Lifer

  • Amur Falcon -- L
  • Arctic (Hoary) Redpoll -- L
  • Arctic Warbler -- L
  • Asian Brown Flycatcher -- L
  • Asian Dowitcher -- L
  • Asian Short-toed Lark -- L
  • Azure Tit -- L
  • Bank Swallow
  • Bar-headed Goose -- L
  • Barn Swallow
  • Bean Goose -- L
  • Black Grouse -- L
  • Black Stork -- L
  • Black Woodpecker -- L
  • Black-billed Magpie
  • Black-eared Kite -- L
  • Black-headed Gull -- L
  • Black-tailed Godwit -- L
  • Black-winged Stilt
  • Blyth's Pipit -- L
  • Bohemian Waxwing -- L
  • Booted Eagle -- L
  • Brown Shrike -- L
  • Carrion Crow
  • Chinese Penduline Tit -- L
  • Chukar -- L
  • Cinereous Vulture
  • Citrine Wagtail -- L
  • Coal Tit
  • Common Cuckoo
  • Common Goldeneye
  • Common Greenshank -- L
  • Common Kestrel
  • Common Merganser
  • Common Pochard -- L
  • Common Raven
  • Common Redpoll
  • Common Redshank -- L
  • Common Rosefinch -- L
  • Common Sandpiper
  • Common Shelduck -- L
  • Common Snipe -- L
  • Common Starling
  • Common Swift
  • Common Tern
  • Crested Lark -- L
  • Curlew Sandpiper -- L
  • Dark-throated Thrush -- L
  • Daurian Jackdaw -- L
  • Daurian Partridge -- L
  • Daurian Redstart -- L
  • Demoiselle Crane -- L
  • Desert Warbler -- L
  • Desert Wheatear -- L
  • Dusky Thrush -- L
  • Dusky Warbler -- L
  • Eared Grebe
  • Eurasian Bullfinch -- L
  • Eurasian Coot -- L
  • Eurasian Curlew -- L
  • Eurasian Griffon
  • Eurasian Hobby
  • Eurasian Jay
  • Eurasian Nutcracker -- L
  • Eurasian Nuthatch -- L
  • Eurasian Skylark
  • Eurasian Sparrowhawk
  • Eurasian Spoonbill -- L
  • Eurasian Three-toed Woodpecker -- L
  • Eurasian Tree Sparrow
  • Eurasian Treecreeper -- L
  • Eurasian Wigeon -- L
  • Eurasian Wryneck -- L
  • Eyebrowed Thrush -- L
  • Falcated Duck -- L
  • Fork-tailed Swift -- L
  • Gadwall
  • Garganey -- L
  • Godlewski's Bunting -- L
  • Goldcrest -- L
  • Golden Eagle
  • Gray Heron
  • Gray Wagtail -- L
  • Great Cormorant
  • Great Crested Grebe
  • Great Gray Shrike -- L
  • Great Spotted Woodpecker
  • Great Tit
  • Greater Short-toed Lark -- L
  • Greater Spotted Eagle -- L
  • Green Sandpiper -- L
  • Green-winged Teal
  • Greenish Warbler -- L
  • Hawfinch -- L
  • Hazel Grouse -- L
  • Hen/Northern Harrier
  • Herring Gull
  • Hill Pigeon -- L
  • Hoopoe
  • Horned Grebe
  • Horned Lark
  • House Sparrow
  • Isabelline Shrike -- L
  • Isabelline Wheatear -- L
  • Kentish (Snowy) Plover -- L
  • Lesser Spotted Woodpecker -- L
  • Lesser Whitethroat -- L
  • Little Bunting -- L
  • Little Owl -- L
  • Little Ringed Plover
  • Long-tailed Rosefinch
  • Long-tailed Tit
  • Long-toed Stint -- L
  • Mallard
  • Marsh Sandpiper
  • Meadow Bunting -- L
  • Mew Gull -- L
  • Mongolian Finch -- L
  • Mongolian Ground-jay -- L
  • Mongolian Lark -- L
  • Northern Lapwing -- L
  • Northern Pintail
  • Northern Shoveler
  • Northern Wheatear
  • Olive-backed Pipit -- L
  • Oriental Plover -- L
  • Oriental Reed Warbler -- L
  • Oriental Turtle Dove
  • Pacific Golden-plover -- L
  • Paddyfield Warbler -- L
  • Pallas' Reed Bunting -- L
  • Pallas's Leaf Warbler -- L
  • Pallas's Sandgrouse -- L
  • Peregrine Falcon
  • Pied Avocet -- L
  • Pied Wheatear -- L
  • Pine Bunting -- L
  • Pine Grosbeak -- L
  • Pintail Snipe -- L
  • Red (Common) Crossbill
  • Red-billed Chough -- L
  • Red-crested Pochard -- L
  • Red-flanked Bluetail -- L
  • Red-necked Grebe
  • Red-throated Flycatcher -- L
  • Richard's Pipit -- L
  • Rock Dove
  • Rock Sparrow -- L
  • Rook -- L
  • Ruddy Shelduck -- L
  • Ruddy Turnstone
  • Ruff -- L
  • Rufous-tailed Robin -- L
  • Saker Falcon -- L
  • Scaly Thrush -- L
  • Sharp-tailed Sandpiper -- L
  • Siberian Accentor -- L
  • Siberian Rubythroat -- L
  • Smew -- L
  • Spotted Flycatcher -- L
  • Spotted Redshank -- L
  • Steppe Eagle -- L
  • Swan Goose -- L
  • Temminck's Stint -- L
  • Thick-billed Warbler -- L
  • Tree Pipit -- L
  • Tufted Duck -- L
  • Twite -- L
  • Upland Buzzard -- L
  • Ural Owl -- L
  • Water Pipit -- L
  • White Wagtail
  • White-cheeked Starling -- L
  • White-naped Crane -- L
  • White-winged (Two-barred) Crossbill -- L
  • White-winged Scoter
  • White-winged Tern -- L
  • Whooper Swan -- L
  • Willow Tit -- L
  • Wood Sandpiper -- L
  • Yellow-billed Grosbeak -- L
  • Yellow-browed (Inornate) Warbler -- L